Wacky fun physics ideas
My reading lately has ventured into weird physics papers. Mainstream physics (unlike machine learning and classical statistics where real progress has been made) is booooring these days. There’s no point in reading another “shittonium on silicon 111” papers, nor am I interested in stupid big budget projects where people always get the expected answer, nor is there any return in reading yet another “confirmation of the standard model” phenomenology gobbledeygook. Black holes, dork matter; anything that can’t be observed is uninteresting and generally just gabbling on about our ignorance of how things actually work. I don’t care for any of the PR touted baloney unified field theories by gentleman surfers or purple hair quaternion enthusiasts, which are about quirky personalities rather than quality of ideas. I’m also sick to death of anyone paying any attention to Avi Loeb, who sees flying saucers in every piece of space junk flying through the solar system. Anyone that hires a PR firm for his “results” is a fraud. Anyone who the media likes for other reasons is likely also a fraud.
I do like weird science though. Stuff that makes you think, “hey what would happen if the universe was this way.” It might not be right, it might even be obviously retarded to people who work in the field, but considering that the post-1945 order is ending, we’d expect it to end in physics as well, just as it did post 1918. When the great upheavals happen in human history, previous certainties become less certain and things start to move in the arts and sciences. These are all theoretical noodlings, but at least they take the time to have an interesting thought. Anyway, in no particular order, here are some WEIRD SCIENCE papers and a few notes about each.

Leptons might not generate gravity. I mean, they might, they might not. Leptons (aka mostly electrons) are weird because they’re like 2000x lighter than everything else. Leptons obviously have inertial mass. I’m pretty sure someone has shown that they are subject to gravity also by now, but I never looked for evidence of this. Probably this is part of particle accelerator physics: electrons should drop as quickly as anything else in the direction of the earth’s core. Whether or not they generate gravity has definitely not been measured to within the accuracy we’d need to know for sure. This is in principle a knowable thing. The Kreuzer experiment was an early attempt to measure gravitational mass versus inertial mass of two different kinds of normal matter. This paper gives a decent argument that such an experiment couldn’t distinguish the case where leptons or binding energy were not gravity generating as General Relativity says they must be. Maybe it’s just a wacky idea, but it’s an interesting wacky idea that should have physicists getting out their torsion balances.
Gravity is an entropic result of matrix mechanics. I don’t fully understand this one as it involves some references to noodle theory, but it’s fun to pretend gravity is entropic and see what happens. In this case, the author defines a fast and slow timescale in the matrix mechanics. Gravity is experienced by the slow timescale matrix elements through complex entanglement interactions with the fast timescale matrix elements (which act like a heat bath). It’s a little annoying he’s using noodle theory, as that’s where the gravitational constants come from, making this a sort of self-licking ice cream cone. Why do we need noodle theory if Gravity is entropic? There’s a couple of other papers in the same genre, I didn’t pick this one for any particular strengths, it’s just the first one I came across. I’ve mentioned I find the whole entropic gravity idea to be interesting, though there are no really compelling papers on it. The main argument for it is the fact that most of the everyday forces we encounter in life are thermodynamic in origin; why not gravity also. Hand wavey argument for sure, but many great things, such as special relativity, originated from humble reasoning.
Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology. It seems like this must be false, since the electron has charge and all, but it’s an interesting idea, and it has an excellent answer to this objection. The present theory of point-like electrons is pretty weird if you stop to think about it: points imply singularities. I mean, the electron has charge, spin and a magnetic dipole moment: how do you get that from a point? This is a very clever paper: wrap an electromagnetic field of a photon on a torus and you naturally get a lot of interesting properties of the electron back, including spin-1/2 properties, a net magnetic dipole moment and an electric charge; effectively from the orientation of the photon’s electric field around the torus. The precession of the field around the torus makes it look like a sphere on most reasonable time scales, which looks like what we think of as an electron. It even gets the charge of the electron right using simple arguments. Some dopes say it’s not quite right, then happily go back to QED, which also doesn’t get the charge of the electron right by a significantly larger degree. The crazy thing about this is the Compton wavelength of the electron also falls out naturally: basically you get quantum mechanics for free from this, and the mechanism of this is demonstrated, rather than the normal state of affairs, which is to simply accept that there’s a wavelength. This has to do with the Doppler shift of a photon’s momentum on the torus. This is a really elegant and cool idea. There are about 130 citations so far. I came across this one in this Huygens Optics video presentation on the paper which is worth a look, though the paper is quite clear also. It’s an old idea, the Dirac equation has a funny oscillation in it. Here’s a nice review paper of this group of ideas, which says nice things about this paper specifically, but points out that it doesn’t explain how the photon got all twisted up in a doughnut in the first place. Though they kind of suggested smashing a couple of high energy photons together in a special way might do it; pair production, basically, though the toroidal symmetry implies something a little more detailed (probably involving circular polarization). This is my favorite of this small collection of weird science papers: the type of thing that could grow into something which sweeps away a lot of the mystical nonsense accreted up over the last century. Some of the bits of it seem arbitrary, but nowhere near as arbitrary as the standard model, and it has satisfying mechanistic explanations without any mysticism. All you need is electromagnetic waves, special relativity and the Doppler shift. Oh yeah and a torus.
I guess this one is not physics, but astrobiology is weird enough to count. Astrobiology was housed in the same buildings as the physics department in my department at Pitt after all; near the guy who used rockets to learn about the atmosphere. Imagine if there were very different kinds of life, say, something based on arsenic or silicon. Unless the organisms were big, how would we detect them? I’ve mentioned before that new forms of normal life are discovered all the time in places like mud; if a form of life were weird we might not be able to detect them at all. The concept has been explored a little, for example in this paper Signatures of a Shadow Biosphere, they speculate that “desert varnish” may be such a thing. Desert varnish looks weird and is enriched in arsenic and manganese. Maybe it is the result of a form of life with a radically different metabolism involving arsenic and manganese. Others say no, but of course others say no; it’s worth investigating further. Less exotic: we could look for L-sugars (amino acids have more inherent racemic qualities).
One thing that has consistently bothered me about spin-1/2 in particle physics is that we’ve achieved a profound and simultaneous disunification of two previously unified concepts. We already thought we knew, from any macroscopic dynamics, what angular momentum was and why and when it is conserved. We also thought we knew what the source term of magnetic fields are. (Magnetic fields are electric fields in special relativity. And their only source term is moving charge.)
So if we are to abandon any quest to create some model of how charge and mass is moving around inside a fermion, if we are to accept as final the idea that the spinor description is some fundamental property that has no deeper model in terms of internal motion, and no “classical” analogue, then we’ve broken what we thought we knew, and no one seems bothered by this! We now have two terms in our calculations for angular momentum – one a moment of the way that stuff is moving around, and the other some mathematical object with weird geometric properties. We now have two source terms for magnetic fields – one the way that charge is moving around, and the other that same charge multiplied by said weird object which we are not to interpret as having deeper explanation.
It is as if, after having invented the kinetic theory of heat energy, we decided that, oh by the way, there is no deeper model for this other substance that appears to have a temperature and exchanges energy with the thermal energy of matter we put it in contact with. No internal motion there, just tack another term onto your equations and it all works out!
Spin-1/2 being tied up with the Pauli exclusion principle is also significant somehow (having some relation to the fact that spinors seem to live in some other geometry than everything else with a different topology). But a real explanatory model of what is going on would have to have, as a feature, reunifying our concepts of angular momentum and magnetism by once again describing the angular momentum as the moment of the way something is moving.
Not claiming any given explanation (toroidal photon) etc *must* be true or even on the right track. Just adding my two cents to the notion that our present understanding of particles seems unsatisfactory, despite assertions about how we’re a few parameter tweaks away from the final theory of everything, and any future theory must resemble QFT.
Point *anything* is a problem in classical physics. There should be some kind of mass related to the interaction between matter and fields, if the fields are capable of transporting momentum and energy. If you’ve got point particles, that mass is infinite. Abraham was trying to explain the electron mass in terms of electromagnetic energy. (It’s one way you can get the classical electron radius.) I think Poincare also had ideas along similar lines. Then it was all thrown out the window in the quantum revolution.
Why are the charged leptons massy, and the chargeless leptons almost (or maybe entirely) massless, if interaction with the EM field has no bearing on their mass? You can take the infinite? mass due to interaction energy and throw it out, but it seems like you might be throwing out the ability to consistently explain part of a particles mass with it.
This electron is a photon torus paper is good enough I probably should have done a more detailed exposition in its own post. The others are worth a look/think as well, but are not as good.
This model of the electron as a photon on the torus explains pretty much all of the weirdness of electrons. The electron is no longer a point: the average of it looks like a point from a short distance/timescale, same as any other central potential. Spin 1/2 is simply the field moving through the two rotational axes of the torus. I remember the lady teaching my group theory section emphasizing the connection between SU(2) aka spin-1/2 and SO(3) aka normal rotation in 3-d, and thinking “yeah but WHY is it 2-dimensional, where did other dimension go.” Torus is why. You can sort of stretch it out into a Moebius strip, making the spin-1/2 thing as natural as anything is on a Moebius strip. I assume the instructor knew about these things (Penrose student), but we were junior year students with no point topology, and our exposure to the origins of SU(2) in SO(3) was like 1-2 days of the seminar, so we all shrugged and moved on. The fact that you get correct masses, charges, magnetic moment and toy quantum mechanics with correct Compton wavelengths out of all this indicates that this is the right direction to march in.
I encourage everyone interested in this to watch the Huygens optics video exposition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYyrgDEJLOA
The fact that you have to live with a photon on a torus and wonder how it got on a freaking torus is, to me, irrelevant details. Presently, physicists happily live with all manner of absurdities; renormalization, spin-1/2 particles, charge 2/3 and 1/3 quarks, problems with relativity light cones and QM, bare charges of the electron, point-like electrons, quantum absurdities, tunneling, wave-particle duality: the list is extremely long. They should be able to tolerate a photon living on a torus, which makes a lot of these absurdities go away with a relatively simply geometric model.
That’s a psychological problem with contemporary physics people: they’re trained to be good little schoolboys who accept the absurdities of modern physics. They’re flattered that they understand more than the normies because they accept these ridiculous things, when in reality their peasant-nature has caused them to accept stupid things in a bovine manner. It’s somewhat natural in the indoctrination phase of physics: you’re overwhelmed with mastering new ideas, and so you’re forced to accept some of the weirder ones. The problem is, most of them never outgrow their bovine peasant-mind acceptance of these things, even when they go back and teach it to the young. They’re too busy in their narrow research field to actually revisit the ideas they’re presenting. This is the same psychology that causes experimental physicists to wear paper covid-cuck masks; “must accept muh science looking thing. “
My personal educational experience also didn’t dive deep into the Dirac equation, which makes all of this much more natural. We lept from Schroedinger/Heisenberg picture with a little Dirac correction terms to make the hydrogen atom results work better, directly to quantum field theory, which appeared to be pulled directly from someone’s anus. I suspect most people from Boomers onward have had this didactic experience. Makes me want to go back and give the Dirac picture a 6 month deep dive: the didactics I never got.
Anyway, exciting idea. If I were a young theoretical physicist, I’d try to extend it in various directions. The same bag of ideas should work on other elementary particles and you should be able to extend the reasoning up to the rest of quantum mechanics to replace it with something testable.
I hope this idea is really ready for consideration. It’s been floating around for some time but it’s generally missed that Williamson and van der Mark are basically talking about a missing 1_1 prime knot, left out of the tables because Reidemeister 1 doesn’t conserve writhe. (I had a math prof confirm this was generally known but not worth writing a paper about, odd that) What this paper is doing is re-applying Kelvin’s intuitions to the particle level and it can keep going from there. Protons are as trefoils, neutrons as figure 8 knots. J.J. Thomson himself suggested photons were toroidal (unknots). The W&vdM paper sort of misleads people by invoking toroids (which are certainly relevant but not quite as omni-explanatory in and of themselves).
On this note, I’ve been trying to explain isotope stability using a simple approach derived from this and I don’t know where the serious-minded nuclear theorists are at but there’s a lot of specific detail that starts to fall out if you start playing around.
A draft of that approach is here if anyone is interested. I’m not ‘in the biz’ so bear that in mind: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c7QDgeTwRaha2GJC3zzwNKk71FxNyF5ulQzepYjOgeQ/edit?usp=sharing
You ever try to account for tunneling in this model? I assume these nuclei can do a sort of cellular automata looking musical tunneling chairs thing under the right circumstances.
Hestenes has a few papers that play with similar toroid stuff. He builds on some interesting attempts by de broigle to model the photon as an electron positron pair wobbling around each other.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1910.11085
Nice paper, thanks.
Fun stuff broadly on these lines, Oliver Consa’s website:
https://www.oliverconsa.com/
And the Zitter institute:
https://www.zitter-institute.org/
FWIIW Williamson’s coauthor is also a t’Hooft coauthor (t’Hooft has been making hidden variable noises lately).
https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.06478
Looks like AI-empowered cranks have discovered that paper too?
https://x.com/2013m/status/1996596057967583611
It got linked in HN, so no surprise the LLM slop merchants found it.
Would be nice if a talented grad student noticed as well.
Williamson was wacky and fun
https://quicycle.com/
FWIIW Kracklauer who thinks entanglement is conditional probability a la ET Jaynes was also a collaborator of Williamson.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chandra-Roychoudhuri/publication/300254106_Are_electrons_oscillating_photons_oscillating_vacuum_or_something_else_The_2015_panel_discussion/links/57179fe108ae986b8b79df4a/Are-electrons-oscillating-photons-oscillating-vacuum-or-something-else-The-2015-panel-discussion.pdf
Either I’ve come across a cult of extremely talented cranks, or a cult of thought criminals who have it all figured out. He also seems to have dropped dead around the same time as Williamson and van der Mark. Maybe the ay-ays got them all.
While looking at connections between thermodynamics and gravity I have found about Diósi–Penrose model.
In it it is gravity that causes wave function collapse, not an observation as in Copenhagen interpretation. Apparently as with others theories of the objective wave function collapse it can explain the second law of thermodynamics and observed time anisotropy with less assumptions then present mainstream reasoning.
And it seems testing the predictions is within the current technology. But of cause , as this is against mainstream, money will be spent on CERN…
I remember reading vaguely of this. I guess they’re starting some tests:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2111.13490
Re: Quantum heresy:
I remember reading a paper (or commentary about a paper) on a three level atomic transition experiment. Pretty standard two wavelength laser interaction experiment – we’ve seen it before a million times, right?
In this experiment there was a ground state |0>, a relatively long timescale transition to a middle state |1>, and a very short lived transition from 1 to an upper state |2>. The upper transition laser would start to scatter off the atom when it hits the |1> state. Sort of optically induced opacity used to probe the transition of the other state.
But great pains were taken to do this experiment on a single atom, and to insure nothing else was in the trap or in the probe laser channel. It turns out when you do this experiment on a single atom, an isolated system, your nice smooth 1-2-rabi-frequency sine-wave (which ends up being the result of an averaging process) turns into a much more sticky square-ish wave with randomly distributed rapid transitions between the upper and lower level, and periods where the atom hangs out at the upper or lower level. The very interesting thing were these blips (little dips in the plot) which appear in the rapidly sampled square-ish-wave prior to it flipping from the upper to the lower level. These blips were called “harbingers”, and look like the projection of some kind of internal state that shouldn’t be there in the typical quantum description of atomic states. Like a coin beginning to wobble before spinning down to the table or something. These are invisible if you have more than one atom in there blurring things in some ensemble mess.
I’ll have to find that paper again, because it’s an interesting bit of quantum heresy, and maybe a direct detection of some “hidden variables”.
Maybe this one by Haroche and friends?
Diagrams didn’t make it into the PDF.
https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0111110
Reminds me of the Threshold theory guy, who shows some experimental evidence you can warm up your transitions and get some evidence of an internal state.
https://www.thresholdmodel.com/https://www.thresholdmodel.com/
Entertaining read, and impressive home experiments, though on a skim I’m not sure I completely understand the guy’s point.
Some citations would be nice. I assume this was one of them:
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Geometric-Theory-of-Neutrinos-Penney/74eaddb4b86d70c66cb1e06a9cb96a21b9277ffb
Over my head, but interesting anyway.
No, this https://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.137.B1385
and ch X pg 191 of this https://ia601600.us.archive.org/9/items/principlerelativ00halo/principlerelativ00halo.pdf
Thanks for this. Wow 11 citations; I wonder how you found this? Penny certainly seems like an interesting guy.
It seemed odd to me that Einstein’s paper was important enough to put in that “Principle of Relativity” dover reprint, but that Einstein just dropped it. So I went on a hunt for citations and Penney 1965 is all I found.
Anyone know who Penney was? Looks like he worked at Ford and cranked this stuff out in his spare time. I am thinking he may have been part of the Bergmann crew out of Syracuse. I learned GR from one of those guys. Might not be worth a book, but that crew was interesting in their own right and their work is lost to time and space. Many ended up at Pitt (I don’t know the back story). Ezra Newman, Allen Janis, Jeff Winicour. I met Bergmann once, probably about a year or two before he died, at NYU, with Jim Anderson, one of his Syracuse students.
I never heard of Penny before, but these papers are very fun. The Pitt GR crew included Carlo Rovelli when I was there. Ezra taught me classical mechanics; spent a half hour of one of the classes explaining why he didn’t believe in QM, and why this was the big adventure of physics for our time. Janis was semi-retired by the time I got there. Didn’t know Winicour, but I knew a few of his students.
Not related to this blerg subject at all, but once again, you’ve been vindicated about modern “computer scientists” and the way that they, and average joe programmers, continue treating modern CPUs like just a faster PDP-11:
https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479
Although this article is over 7 years old, it still vindicates you. And it was published by ACM, have any “computer scientists” given it a moment’s notice? Worth thinking about…
I’ve read this before, of course. I’m pretty sure I got the idea from talking to old timers, or maybe a Zawinski essay. It’s self evidently true if you look at what a compiler pooks out.
Completely off topic, but I have a serious question: how the hell do people manage to recycle the exact same arguments for years after they’ve been publicly disemboweled?
I had the misfortune of “debating” abortion with a 4th-year med student the other day. Same prefab lines I heard from a first-semester law kid seven years ago, like they were both reading off the same script.
Went digging for the material I used back then (from abortionfacts.com, now only surviving as a fossil in the Web Archive) and I stumble on this glorious chain of emails from an extremely pissed-off dad to the Falmouth committee crowd. Frank Thiboutot. Absolute legend.
The internet is still littered with this kind of thing if you know where to look. Makes you wonder how much really good stuff vanished before anyone bothered to squirrel it away.
Larry Reed goes into a very similar electron model in some depth:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364333320_Quantum_Wave_Mechanics_Ch_17_Electron_Model
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/390318893_Origin_of_Electron_Mass_and_Charge
One of my professors (Roger Jennison) came up with a similar, though simpler, model of the electron as a phase-locked cavity containing a photon in the form of a standing wave, in a 1979 Wireless World magazine article entitled “What is an electron?“.
Thanks for these. Looks like Larry Reed did a whole book on toroidal electron quantum mechanics I’ll pick up soon.
Reed seems like he’s a retired aerospace guy; I could imagine this sort of physics making a great retirement hobby.
Edit add: actually this book looks insane, probably won’t get.
Jennison looks like he was halfway there, if he had thought of twisting the phase locked cavity onto a torus. FWIIW I came across a few other electron as photon standing wave theories that tried to stick the photon on a sphere. Also some very ancient ones which solved problems with X-ray scattering assuming electrons were a ring of charge (effectively they are in some orbitals).
Torus is of course a very natural manifold when you’re talking about periodic orbits of anything. No singularities in the manifold. Probably stuff like the Poincare-Hopf theorem was more obscure in early days of quantum mechanics, or they thought about the orbits in a different way.
Most of Reed’s book is available on ResearchGate and Academia.edu in any case – someone’s also collected the third edition as a single file. He does take a few flights of fancy, but much of it is well referenced.